Monday, 30 November 2009

Loyd Grossman-Lectures Us On Heritage, After He Helped Destroy Manchester Docks.

The country’s leading heritage organisations — including the National Trust, the Campaign to Protect Rural England, Save Britain’s Heritage and Historic Royal Palaces — will next week issue an election manifesto calling for sweeping reforms to the sector.

Following a major consultation of its members, umbrella group Heritage Link, which represents more than 75 NGOs, will use its annual heritage day this Wednesday to challenge the three main political parties to end neglect of heritage.
It will propose measures including legislation to streamline heritage protection, fully restore levels of National Lottery support, investing in local authority expertise and cutting VAT on repair and restoration.
Heritage Link has a secret weapon in the form of Lloyd Grossman, the media personality and former chairman of National Museums Liverpool, who will be unveiled as its new chairman at the event in London’s King’s Cross.
Speaking exclusively to BD, Grossman revealed that culture secretary Ben Bradshaw, conservative shadow minister Ed Vaizey and Lib Dem shadow minister Don Foster, would all take part in what he called a “hustings”.
He said: “It’s now a very important time for the heritage sector to really begin speaking in a more co-ordinated, articulate and forceful way.”
But Heritage Link’s ambitious move was dealt a preemptive blow after Vaizey, whose Tory party remains well ahead in opinion polls, poured cold water on the plans, calling the main proposals “unrealistic” because of the recession and impending cuts in public spending.
Read more:

Well another high profile career building manifesto from professional heritage people.
So Loyd Grossman who as the purveyor of world heritage disaster at National Museums Liverpool, in the ultimate destruction of Manchester Docks along with the other vandals at English Heretics of which he was once Chairman. They all rode the Bulldozer that did the sod cutting for the foundations of the new Carbuncle Museum in the WHS.

Asking why Unesco are inefective Unesco say English Heretics are the government advsors yet the then Chairman of the Heretics Sir Neil Cossons was working for the museums. How did they get away with this.
As was another one of their heritage spivs.  Peter de Figueiredo who is now allegedly adising, and I use that term loosley Peel Holdings
I once told Loyd Grossperson that architecture is not like making a sauce and the ingredients were certainly a bad mix with him and David "Fuzzy" Felt Fleming who he got away from at the earliest he could. Grossman should be held to account for his involvement in WHS destruction not rewarded with another cushy Quango post. Amanda the editor of BD gives concern to government lack of responsibility.
In the meantime Liverpools listed heritage continues to be in perilous condition and the WHS is being taken apart till it is now a joke of what was left us by our forebears.


  1. This is a letter in todays Daily Ghost

    Eyesore blocks fabulous view
    Nov 30 2009 by Pamela Hoey, Liverpool Daily Post
    Add a commentRecommend THERE are places that have the good fortune to be blessed with buildings or locations which over time become regarded with much affection and draw world-wide admiration.

    Liverpool has the Pier Head and the Three Graces. This complex has won international recognition, culminating in the deserved accolade of World Heritage Site.

    Liverpudlians are justifiably proud of the fact their city possesses something unique and a view that is iconic. This prompts me to pose a question. Can a value or price be placed on such a thing?

    To have one iconic view is, for any city, a priceless asset. But Liverpool, by virtue of the warehouse clearances in the 1980s, became the owner of two views. I refer to the vista that was opened up with the demolition of the buildings around the Salthouse Dock. In one broad sweep the Albert Dock, Pump House, the “Graces” and the Art Deco Mersey Tunnel ventilation tower were on spectacular view.

    Presented with such outrageous good fortune as the custodians and trustees of this visual treasure, what have the city fathers done to express their appreciation and determination to conserve this precious asset? With a lack of imagination and insensitivity they have authorised the construction of – a block of flats.

    The view has now been effectively wrecked with what I have every confidence will prove an architectural non-entity.

    Inevitably one has to ask the question, bearing in mind our inclusion in the exalted company of World Heritage Sites, would the Indians have built a block of flats in front of the Taj Mahal? Will the Americans enhance the Statue of liberty thus?

    I don’t think so.

    I wonder – apart from the short-sighted individuals who authorised construction – if there is any enthusiasm or support for this eyesore from the public?

    F T Green, Dutton

  2. It does seem a bit of paradox a man trying to save heritage and at the same time he was the Chairman of an organisation National Museums Liverpool who should be empowered to look after heritage and instead destroy it

  3. While no great fan of Grossman, Heritage Link is most certainly not a Quango and he's probably not going to be paid!

    Also, I think a great many of Heritage Link's membership consists of heritage organisations which have massive input from volunteers.

  4. Nem
    What have Heritage Link done in the last decade as my experiance are nothing for Liverpool.
    Dont tell me they are funded by English Heritage or the DCMS too.

  5. I can't see what Heritage Link as an organisation has to do directly with Liverpool. Heritage Link was formed in 2002 as a grouping of heritage organisations to band together and speak as one voice and help disseminate information after Tessa Jowell alleged heritage organsations were 'disorganised' and how disparate their views so they could be discounted.

    It's all here

    Grossman is actually quite a powerful voice and someone high profile might help get messages across. We need all the help we can get.

  6. It is clear to understand Nem if as you say it was formed to speak as one voice it was very silent on Liverpools plight on its world heritage destruction.
    I corresponded with them on numerous occasions regarding the government white paper on heritage etc etc and it was in my opinion disorganised and disparate. But well meaning.
    I believe a more direct aproach like what you do is the way forward.
    Grossperson knows Liverpool well he networked his way through it then gave up.
    He as Chairman of The Churches Conservation Trust wishes to dig up 7000 bodies in the oldest remaining cast iron church in the country
    The Church of St James.
    I am sure you will not let this cretiness character pull the wool over your eyes to further his own career he wont me.

  7. But Heritage Link isn't there to take up individual causes! I think you haven't understood its purpose. It's a banding together of organisations. I think it's a bit more than 'well meaning' and I think it's growing and doing a decent job with the confines of what funding it has.

    It has now employed someone to try to co-ordinate the whole heritage protection issue.

    I'm not sure that Grossman is forwarding a career, it's not a career and a great deal of it is voluntary and he is highly thought of in many circles.

    With regard to the digging up uf bodies, to build, it's maybe been put forward as one way of getting in the cash to repair the church. It's never easy to fund the work.

  8. As you are too well aware Nem world heritage is not an individual cause.
    Banding together has forgotten Liverpool and its a bit too late for Liverpools WHS. Loyd Grossman, if you read the post actually did the turf cutting exersise and in doing so the little sod with his other free work destroyed Manchester Docks. You cant continue to be blindfolded to these people who should know better and despite acknowledging De Figuiridos damage you dont acknowledge Neil Cossons or Grossman. Is that just because you support middle class causes? I dont know.

    All this is never free work its career hopping.
    It all helps to sell sauce for the Gross Man.

  9. Wayne, try reading what Heritage Link is about.

    Clearly you haven't understood. I can't think how and why it should take up the cause of Liverpool. It's not campaigning organisation for individual causes. I think it's doing good work within its remit.

    And while personally I may dislike what is happening in parts of Liverpool, I don't think that the WHS is being destroyed.

    Cossons is a towering figure in conservation, although now retired, and I'm really not prepared to spend time dissing people just because you have problems with some aspects of what they may or may not have done. I doubt Grossamn is making a career - he's rich enough not to need to and he's doing stuff voluntarily.

    As for 'middle class causes' - not sure what they are. Heritage is heritage.

  10. well said.

    You yourself concluded that the Carbuncle Terminal Ferry Building was a aworthy winner.
    Since we met here in Liverpool the main protaganists of disaster Mann Islands Three Black Slugs are sliming their was across the best views in Liverpool. The WHS is destroyed.
    My opinion is Cossons is a enemy to conservation as he let himself and the people of Liverpool down with a towering monument to his stewardship of English Heritage and as a trustee of NML.

    I know exactly what heritage link is and it does not reach here in Liverpool because it is well and truly stitched up by people who you describe as towering figures, retired or not.
    Loyd Grossman let this city down and buggered off before it come back to haunt him. Chairman of Liverpool museums destroying Manchester Docks which pre-dated the Albert by 60 years. I thought you would be able to understand that instead of defending everyone doing the damage the case may be doing nothing.

  11. No, you haven't the first idea what Heritage Link is, if that's your view! None at all!

    No, the World Heritage Site is NOT destroyed. You may not like the buildings, but I can't see it is destroyed, it's just altered.

  12. Nem. You are not reading what I am saying that here in Liverpool it doesnt matter a hoop who heritage link are, It was not there helping with world heritage and is not vocal or engaged with the public enough. It appears to be run by career conservationists. Most Quango types, The Churches trust, commission or whatever seem to be the same run by trustees who never engage with the public. It is this lack of thinking, that thinks they can talk amongst themselves that has destroyed the Liverpool world heritage site. I was there when Cossons unvieled the world heritage site inscription and made a note of the blighters speach. Where you. You are not opening your eyes. Peel Holdings are about to destroy the rest of it. with what you yourself called after a phrase of mine Dubai-On-Sea.
    Dale Street is in a mess. With respect what happens with the likes of yourself is you come here for a weekend and you think you can then sit on the fence and pontificate.
    I live here and study what I am talking about I make no excuses for not dipping into other peoples business other than to offer support otherwise I would sound the same. There is nou doubt the soul of the WHS has been destroyed imagine the Taj Mahal being used like this. You need to spend less time talking about St Petersburg and spreading yourself thin over a lot of subjects and look at what is happening in Liverpool. Spec-savers would be a help.

  13. Wayne - it is not the role of Heritage link to help with World Heritage. It isn't there to be vocal for World Heritage.

    So, no point at all discussing with you when you haven't the first idea.

    How many of its member organisations are you part of? In order to be a Trustee you have to put yourself forward, no-one comes along and asks.

    I'm one person writing a blog. I write what I like And if you don't like it, tough.

  14. Here's some of the reasoning why Liverpool is a WHS

    and I think that still applies really. It's the big picture.

    Frankly, I think St Petersburg is under more threat of having its WHS status removed than Liverpool.

  15. Heritage Link if I am not mistaken no 32 which I was subscribed to called for opinions of organisations and heritage groups on the Heritage White Paper. I think that was 2006 after Unesco was so concerned that they requested it needed extra protection for WHS. I remember commenting a full page in the local papers and availing myself to local radio over this matter. What come of this? Nothing.
    New Planning guidlines are under fire
    Well I have done my best to explain, that somewhere it is going wrong as we are still debaiting the same stuff which is all too late for Liverpool.
    We still have 10 properties on the Heretics at risk register 200 others doing a balancing act and areas of the city the same 30 years after the riots.
    You are aware of how trustees work, as example say with Liverpool Museums they get the Chairman of English Heretics to sign up then the Chairman of the North West Development Agency oh and the council leader of the time. It is a joke the way democracy works. The new Chairman of the NWDA is the ex CE of Peel Holdings. Hilarious and the more stand off respect without
    At present you are one person writing on our blog trying to contadict opinions we have about Liverpool of which may be a subject we know a little bit about and it is not meant to wind you up.

  16. Here is some reasoning.
    We had it all a image to rival any in the world and the morons who run the place and the carpet baggers with contacts slime all over it and destroy the values of it.
    OUV is a term that covers a multitude of sins anbd if you are niave enough to quote a Liverpool council document prepared by the World Heritage waste of time John Hinchliff who is paid by the Heretics it would be like going down a blind alley with a blindfold on.

    Criterion (iv): Liverpool is an outstanding example of a world mercantile port city, which represents the early development of global trading and cultural connections throughout the British Empire.

    So Grossperson helps destroy Manchester Docks.

    Criterion (ii): Liverpool was a major centre generating innovative technologies and methods in dock construction and port management in the 18th and 19th centuries. It thus contributed to the building up of the international mercantile systems throughout the British Commonwealth;

    So they build a shopping centre on Steers dock. And the millions of tons of stones and rubble fills in a dock Trafalgar Dock in the WHS.Come on get your history in order before delivering us a lecture.
    It goes on

    1. Liverpool's role in World History
    2. Liverpool's Tradition of Innovative Development
    3. Liverpool's Outstanding Urban Landscape
    4. Liverpool's Collections.

    Talking of collections if you were aware from the post there is no Liverpool pottery on view in the city as Fuzzy Felt, who reported Grossman to the DCMS has had removed for a cafe.

    The Statement of Liverpool's Outstanding Universal Value which was agreed by the World Heritage Committee in July 2004 confirmed that Liverpool meets three criteria for cultural WHSs:

    Dont you think its a bit outdated.

    THE OUV has been destroyed and unless you wake up to reality its a none argument.

  17. Wayne, I give up. I haven't the time or the inclination to once again tell you what Heritage Link is and does. Blame the government, not Heritage Link. Are you actually a member of any of the organisations which make up HL? Subscribing to the newsletter is something very different.

    But shooting all the messengers is achieving nothing. Maybe I have some overview, but you know, no-one has done anything illegal. To change the law and policies, you have to work with the system.

    Which is what members of HL are trying to do.

    But writing inaccurate stuff hitting out at all and sundry needs to be corrected.

  18. Wayne, again you call me naive. I think that's insulting and I think frankly I can see why you get nowhere with getting much done. Try not shooting yourself in the foot with quite so much damage.

    If you want the OUV's then see the full docs. But frankly, ceramics is isn't much to do with OUV's.

    I have read and yes, I do understand.

  19. Nem I appreciate your comments and by debate I form my opinions. You really would have to live with it all to understand the way it works.

    It is not you I wish to shoot but you cant change policies with two faced cretins like Grossperson in charge of heritage organisations. I cannot forgive him for what he did here to the oldest dock in the city, intact. Manchester Docks no more.

  20. Wayne, do you not think it works the same the world over?

    I am pissed off with you telling me I am naive. I can assure you I'm not. If you think so, then I can tell you, you are the naive one.

    And calling people cretins is just offensive. Maybe he can learn the error of his ways? He's the Chair, not the policy maker. He has the ear of many. Let's make sure he says the right things.

  21. Also, I suggest you do a little research abut St James' Church, and the CCT, and the re-investing in C of E, and the proposed building in the churchyard and what its purpose is to be. I doubt the dead will care what happens to their bones, although a creful exhumation and reburial is the plan, by what is proposed to help the living sounds a good idea to me.

  22. Yes but I am the one who has had to endure the cretiness behaviour of people you apear to respect.

    I dont think you will ever be able to understand just what Liverpools Historic Pier Head meant to me and most Liverpudlians. It was our soul what gave us the WHS status and if you continue to make excuses for world heritage desicration then I have to say you are letting yourself down. It is my opinion that this way of allowing cretiness behaviour to go unchecked is what got us into this sorry state with the state of the nations heritage. I repeat Heritage Link is a Quango organisation run by career people and although you may disagree with my use of the word quango from your information it has a score or so members who are quangos. In this instance it has done nothing to stop the destruction of the WHS or done anything to help Liverpool and several of the organisations within it choosing as many other organisations do , to play around with heritage. t One of those such members is the Churches Conservation Trust who wish to dig up 7000 bodies at St James Liverpool.
    Shame on you for even suggesting that the dead wont care about their bones and I have done my research on this subject listening to the CCT and English Heritige at numerous stooged up meetings that would kid those who dont understand what they are talking of and it is only by seeing through this smoking mirror of heritage deciept that goes on day in day out in my city that you become able to make proper judgements.

  23. Heritage Link IS NOT A QUANGO RUN BY CAREER PEOPLE, OK? It's a grouping together of organisations to try to speak as one voice to the government, and disseminate information. It's also not the fault of HL that the government shelved the Hertiage Protection Bill

    And I don't have any problem with 'career conservationists' as some of my closest friends are such. And hey, you know, they actually care and work their socks off for historic buildings, and historic transport, way beyond what they are paid to do. That's why they work in the sector. In fact, my fees for joining organisations actually help pay their salaries, and if I wanted, I could stand for committees and as Trustees and stuff. I know a great deal about Heritage Link and who started it and why. And the people who did have worked a lifetime for heritage conservation.

    And it's still patently obvious that you haven't the first idea of what Heritage Link is and what its remit is. It isn't there to 'stop the destruction of the World Heritage Site' (not that it is destroyed) so why lash out at an organisation for not doing something it isn't there to do? Some of its member organisations have worked hard to try to help Liverpool, such as SAVE.

    The Churches Conservation Trust DOES NOT WISH TO DIG UP BODIES. It is the CHURCH OF ENGLAND which now re-owns the church and is to re-use it AS A CHURCH which wants to do that, in order to build some much needed community facilities, which I fully applaud. The dead were frequently dug up and removed from churchyards in the past, bones put in charnel houses etc. It's nothing new. They will re-locate all bodies, with care.

    Wayne - did you seek a call-in over the 'destruction' of anything? If you believe you are so right and everyone else is so wrong, have you tried to have it tested at inquiry?

    Also, using the word cretin I find offensive to those with a disability which used to be labelled 'cretinism'.

    And Wayne, I also find your allegations that I am naive and don't know how things work and what goes on offensive; instead of hitting out at the wrong people, I do things about it. OK?

    So let's just end it here, OK? I have work to do which might actually help save a building or two, and this is just a waste of my time.

  24. Yes indeed I am being unfair to all those people by generalising, who work so hard in the heritage sector.
    ICOMOS UK a heritage link member was indeed helpful to our plight. Susan Denyer in particular. Although they were sideswiped in the process at the planning meeting the Chief Planning Officer saying they did not recognise them. They were then used as pawns ny Neptune Developments stating in the paper that they were happy with Mann Island scheme which they were not.
    If I am not mistaken Liverpool City Council advised me they are now a member of ICOMOS UK.
    The point that I have made clearly but you keep lashing out maybe its the passionate way I write or something, talking about my city of which I know a thing or two because I live here, is that with all this current do-gooder heritage regime it is so easy for developers and lobbyists to by-pass heritage quangi as what happened here in Liverpool. Although you along with SAVE took an interest for an exhibition in 2008 when Liverpool was Capital of Culture. But where were you and SAVE when the WHS was being destroyed ( I spent days on the exhibition with them) and if you give me another one about the WHS not being destroyed I will get upset. I respect what SAVE do and I had the middle pages of the Daily Post who I got to write about the exhibition. But heritage is not about wine and cheese evenings its about scrumming in there and fighting politics and when you have cretiness people like Loyd Grossman destroying our heritage and then buggering off it nakes me sick. Nothiong will change that I have principles that I adhere to and I would rather lose friends than compromise them.

  25. Wine and cheese evenings? Get real. That's the froth on the top. It's clear you haven't a bloody clue who is fighting and how the battles are won.

    So excuse me if I stop listening, I've got work to do and battles to fight.

  26. Pathfinders publication and battles, helping Elizabeth Pascoe with her legal challenges, Commons Select Committees, they aren't wine and cheese evenings Wayne. Nor are Judicial Reviews and major public inquiries. And so much more besides.

  27. Nem you said that yesterday. What is the point in fighting me about my city that I live in and for that reason I am well disposed to make it my opinion if it so chooses me. People have got away with murder.
    However if they were just my opinions well that would be something but I speak to people from every walk of life in the heart of the town centre as you know 100 yards from the Pier Head and in the world heritage site. We have a group of committed people whose views are happy to be put forward by me.
    I thank you for the oportunity to debate. Please dont get too upset. But for me I am in it to tell it as I see it and tell of the people who have let us down, thats a fact.

  28. I see someone lashing out pointlessly and inaccurately at people and organisations who work their socks off for heritage, and who see the finer points of the politics game. So alientaing them and telling them they do nothing and are ignorant of the facts isn't a great idea.

  29. I agree with Wayne. Grossman is a useless self-serving prat. I blame him personally for spearheading the destruction of Manchester Dock - Liverpool's oldest piece of Maritime heritage, destroyed by bulldozers and JCBs before our eyes. The Liverpool Echo covered this story with the headline "THEY ARE CONCRETING OVER OUR HISTORY" Heritage Link were notable by their silence.

  30. Another who doesn't have a clue. what Heritage Link is all about.

  31. Who is this nemesis do they liv in Liverpool I fear not as they would not be so upbeat about Heritage.
    I wrote several letters about the impending doom that was ladled on the Pier Head.
    I Nemesis thinks our world heritage site is fine then it is very hard to show them respect.
    Charles Korsham.

  32. That's fine Charles, Liverpool is safe in the hands of the LPT, which clearly has worked wonders? You won't want any outsiders trying to help in future, so I suspect many won't.

  33. Heritage Link, DCMS, English Heritage, UNESCO, icomos-uk = same old crowd of useless self-serving hypocrites. Liverpool's WHS ruined, they were all party to it. Don't tell me I haven't got a clue what goes on with this shower. Just take a trip to Liverpool and see the damage for yourself. It's a stitch up of so-called heritage bodies colluding with the council who are in the pocket of big money developers. Give me a break.

  34. I did not see Nemesis at any planning meetings in Liverpool trying to argue with the vested interests.
    You dont understand what you are talking about and it is more than aparent that in your neck of the woods everything is fine and dandy.
    I dont think you have a clue what you are talking about with Liverpool.


  35. Sorry Charles, Esther, I think I know rather better than you realise what I am talking about. But hey, get on with it, as I've lost all interest, and I suspect many I know will feel the same after reading this. I'll pass it around to those working hard to change things. I'm sure they'll be thrilled to know what you think of them. Still, you are doing so well all by yourselves so I have no doubt that all will be fine in future.

    By the way, Hertiage Link, after a major meeting today with high level politicians, where it put forward its worries re heritage protection, lack of, is now Heritage Alliance. But none of you will still have any idea beyond your nose ends.

    No doubt LPT will make the rest of the world sit up and take notice, all by itself.

    Feet, own, shoot.

  36. Who are Nemesis and what do they know of the waay it works, or does not in Liverpool and when they named themselves Nemesis did nobody explain its not supposed to mean "Neing your own Nemesis".

  37. Another high level meeting or a wine and cheese evening where they will all pat each other on the back and its all too late for Liverpool.

  38. I'm just wondering in what way you have ever challenged any of what has gone on. Have you tried for Judicial Review, or sought a call-in for Public Inquiry?

    In what way, for example, did you oppose the dreadful Pathfinders (Welsh Streets/Edge Lane) demolitions? I don't recall you appearing at the Commons Select Committee or putting forward evidence?

    I know what activists in other WHS are doing/have done, in the UK and elsewhere, I'm just not at all sure what the LPT has done?

    But abusing me isn't going to help, indeed, it's probably done your cause no good at all.

  39. Nem no-one is abusing you and as I moderate the comments I will not allow that to happen. I understand the tireless work you do.

    It may be the way you are talking down to us that will provoke a response.
    I have told you before on numerous occasions the way it works in Liverpool. The NWDA run the place it was their land at Mann Island which was next to the land being funded by the NWDA to build a museum. The NWDA funded the Ferry Carbuncle which was in front of the Government Office North West.
    English Heritage were in on it with Grossperson and Cossons dictaing Henry Owen-John and De Figeriudo at English Heritage.
    We first made Unesco aware of WHS plight and brought a monitering mission to Liverpool and they were slushed around by the council for two days while we and the MCS had 10 minutes each.
    We showed in national papers that there were people fighting and in bringing Unesco it led the way for others to do so. We wrote to Tony Bliar and Cherry Bliar. I have correspondence of support from Prince Charles. Doreen Jones passed it all who it is alleged lives on the Grosvenor estate.
    Grosvenor were pulling strings as was Peel Holdings. I personally could not do any more so do not be condescending. The local papers kept it all quiet senior journos now work for the same press agents that did the propaganda. We didnt stand a chance.
    I gave several documents relating to a cover up for a conservation area in Edge Lane proposed by Hawkins from EH who suggested it. I personally saved the Littlewoods Building, still idle owned by the NWDA, from demolition.
    I offered my time for the public inquiry to Florece Gersten and helped her as much as I can.

    In total it would never win all the power is against it, it cant win, it made Elizebeth Pascoe ill. There is no justice here and I dont get mad anymore...I get even. And the writing about it is meant to prove to those for the future that we are watching them as for the WHS site disaster I could cry thinking about what the bastards have done to my city and the way the carpet baggers stitched it up with the idleness of the local population who are now waking up. And in the meantime all those Quangi have made a packet. You need to believe it and stop being pedantic because the people making comments worked their socks off to fight it.
    Incidently Patrick Moran was handed a bill for fighting the Crowne Plaza proposals that the power people won for the MDHC now Peel.

  40. Wayne, have you any idea that it's no different the world over? It is. It's exactly the same.
    Does it not occur to you that I'm in touch with others in other places and spend vast amounts of my time working in these things?

    And does it not occur that inaccurate rants do your cause no good, such as that against the blameless and hugely worthwhile CCT which IS NOT DIGGING UP BODIES, and Heritage Link, an organisation which cannot do what you expect it to, as that's not its remit, and that getting influential people on board, even if you think they have not behaved as they ought in the past, takes some political skill and a great deal of persuasion, and that really you are - and I can't say this loudly or clearly enough - shooting yourselves in the foot?

    Yes, UNESCO missions to Bath and Edinburgh had the same (and less) amounts of time, but all that was backed up by major written submissions. The Bath and Edinburgh missions were not because of you, they were because of campaigners in those places seeking missions. I know as I am/was hugely involved. And they were focussed and accurate written submissions and did you do that? Did you back up your presentation at the meeting with huge dossiers of information related to how you felt the developments proposed would damage the OUV?

    But in the end, nothing has been done which is illegal, within current English law and planning policy; that it isn't illegal is down to the fact that there is no lawful protection for WHS at present. Now, in order to get that, is going to mean a vast amount of pressure and work. And that's where organisations like Heritage Link/Alliance can have some clout. There are no magic wands to wave.

    And yes, I know Elizabeth was made ill, I have talked to Elizabeth, but I also know those who backed her fight all the way, went to court with her, spoke out against it all. But hey, career conservationists, what can they know.

    So don't be pathetic about wine and cheese evenings. It takes hard, hard work to fight it all. It never ends. But you need to learn how to fight and how to do it with some effect.

    Now, I have letters to write and things to do, I haven't any more time to spend on this. But before you write things again which are so inaccurate, I suggest that you check your facts first.

  41. I think it you who isn't listening. How loudly do I have to keep saying it? But sorry, I have other things to do than keep pointing out that ranting about the past isn't making any difference to the present or the future, and I'd rather spend my time now on trying to change things for the future.

  42. Stop Press....Nemesis Saves The World.

  43. Well Charles, I do my bit and play my part, but really, you have no idea. But what time, energy and contacts I have I'll spend on people and places where those involved are at least civil and listen.

    That doesn't appear to be you?

  44. I dont listen Esther doesnt listen wayne does not listen and you keep talking about my city.


  45. Actually I'm taling about a World Heritage Site, which 'belongs' to us all. But if you don't need any outside help that's fine, I'll pass that around. It's all a struggle, everywhere, but I keep working on making things better for the future. Not sure what you are doing?


    Quote from Nemesis.
    In my view Liverpool is now such an architectural mess, particularly the waterfront, that all involved at the council and English Heritics, which surely could have tried to protect this UNESCO World Heritage Site from the worst of the aesthetic awfulness, should now be pushed into the Mersey with boots of the concrete of which they are so fond.

  47. Indeed - and it's a campaigning blog, and it was a little bit satirical, but I haven't additionally blamed the wrong people and organisations and nor have I, in public, called anyone a cretin.

    Learn how to campaign and who not to piss off, and when to grit your teeth; there's wider world of stuff happening out there and you need to get people onboard, not alienate them.

  48. The shyster who drove the bulldozer over the Manchester Docks which pre-dated the Albert by 60 years was the cretiness Loyd Grossperson with the full backing of the arsehole Sir Neil Cossons.
    Oh sorry that was a little tongue in cheek there...when I want it to be.
    The two-facedness of these heritage wallers is why we are in the mess we are in in Liverpool, WHS ruined or not depending on what side of the bed you get out of.
    The more people that turn a blind eye and suck up to the people doing nothing but promote themselves the worst off we will be.
    You have a lot to learn about Liverpudlians.

  49. And they did nothing illegal. You have a lot to learn about why no-one bothers much with the LPT.

    I read what you say and so much of it is plain wrong. So excuse me but there's other stuff I can be doing and not wasting time on people who won't listen and don't have a clue how to campaign at even a local level, let alone an international one.

  50. Coming back to the main problem (Loyd Grossman). If he is involved with Heritage Link then there is no hope for heritage. Last time he was pictured in Liverpool (see Daily Post) he was involved with the demolition of our maritime history. His association with "heritage" is for his own personal agrandisment.

  51. Well, no doubt at the time that the demolition was proposed you objected, on strong legal and planning policy grounds, sought a call-in and /or Judicial Review, and fought it all the way? And had an alternative scheme and suggestions for funding for conservation?

    Have you ever contacted Loyd Grossman and discussed it with him? That's what I would do. He's been a very effective Chair of the CCT, and I have no doubt will work as hard for Heritage Alliance. No doubt you are a member of at least one of the organisations which make up the numbers, and will be contacting the committee to complain about the choice of new Chair, with the reasons why.

  52. Dear Nemesis,
    "Yes" to all the questions in the first paragraph of your comments. English Heritage were asked to protect Manchester Dock by a listing procedure. They refused.
    "No" to the questions in your second paragraph. WHY WOULD I TALK TO THE MAN WHO WAS PARTY TO ALL THIS CIVIC VANDALISM ?
    This is very naive.

  53. So, the infilled site was uncovered, properly excavated,and recorded? Finds removed? So it hadn't been on view until then? Not a lot there really, was there?

    I think you'll find that this happens throughout the country.

  54. Well, I would suggest that it wasn't actually listable, looking at it, and that I'm far, far from naive.

    Right, so you took this to Judicial Review? Presumably lost the case? Have you the documents from the judgment?

    So, not prepared to do anything except moan. Right.

    As I said, I can see why the LPT isn't listened to.

    But, a filled in site was properly and professionally excavated and recorded before any building began. That's about normal procedure.

  55. And the arsehole Cossons Chairman of English Heritage was working for the museums and so was the cretin Grossman. I was called to radio 4 to proclaim the outrage over this along with the liverpool world heritage waste of time officer John Hinchliffe (yes we have one)for him to defend himself live on air to the wanton act of vandalism.
    Private Eye in Pilotis column called it outragous act of vandalism.
    I think you had better stop critising Esther right now.
    I know how hard she works for heritage in the city. I think you just like being a wind up believing you know what you are doing.
    So without being rude. Have you not got something else to do as you seem to want to tell everyone what you can do and what other people cant without any understanding of how hard they work or the political shenanigans that go on. No wonder Liverpool is in such a state with so called heritage experts oblivious to the facts abd hero worshiping the people doing the damage.
    Any more comments and I will not moderate as kindly towards you.

  56. Don't' worry, it is clear that you really haven't much idea beyond nose ends, and no wonder you have/are alientating so many. Of course the political shenanigans go on in other places. How naive are you?

    Me, I'm off the meet a famous architect with whom I have had a very public spat, to buy him a beer and try to get him onboard for the future. We can't go backwards. It's clear that the Liverpool Preservation Trust (is it a legal Trust?) is about lobbing grenades and not listening to those who actually do achieve things.

    So, Wyane, Esther and Charles, keep lobbing those grenades, but I suspect few will be around to listen to then explode.

  57. As for hero worship - grow up Wayne. No, you don't have to publish this comment, but try to see the damage you are doing by being so silly. I could call you a cretin and an arse, but really...There are two sides to everything, and it's no use whinging over lost causes, especially those which were not illegal.

  58. Is this the modern eqivilent of a crank phone call. Why cant she just go away

  59. Nemisis, Do yourself a favour...............

  60. Oh I know who the cranks are. I think many have gone away. None of you have done yourselves any favours.

  61. re post above 3/12 at 17:17.
    I have been alerted to this "discussion" so can only add my point of view. An application was made to list Manchester Dock as an ancient monument, with proposals for future tourist interest (joining it with it's historic past to the newly dug canal link). I have the documents refusing this application, refused by English Heritage. An appeal to the Secretary of State was referred to Government Office of the North West and turned down. To go any further would have required a barrister, with subsequent court costs - this was financially impossible. LPT did a lot of lobbying, including the local press and behind the scenes, but to no avail. Therefore the oldest outstanding fully-preserved dock has been lost. The new museum could have gone anywhere but that particular site. If the treatment of heritage is simply to take photos and archive a few bricks then heaven help us.

  62. EH doesn't list, it assesses and recommends; the Secretary of State has the final say. It's always disappointing when a listing app is turned down, but it happens frequently.

    Yes, archaeological recording is very common. We can't, alas, save it all.

  63. You know exactly what he means Nemesis stop being so clever and if the chairman of EH works for the museum and the DCMS are funding it along with the NWDA what chance do you have.

  64. I don't subscribe to that conspiracy theory, sorry. Can't help being clever, euther. :-)

  65. It is strange Nemisis when I spoke to you about Hawkins the EH inspector at the SAVE exhibition in Liverpool, who did the report for Littlewoods Building on Edge Lane you gave him such a hatefull tirade that it shocked even me with my direct aproach. Now it suits you to be controversial...........Clever is not the word I am using to describe you of late.

  66. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  67. What gets me is that some-one can be so vociferous when they dont live here. Do you know where they live?

    Is she representing Save Britains Heritage.
    I found this poem on line

    I shall not, I think, grow
    round, brown and sweet as a cobnut,
    but sour and suck-cheeked
    as a December crab-apple. I shall sit,
    narrow-eyed, wide-kneed, clot-veined,
    in a chair by the porch,
    malodorous as slurry.


    Yes Charles thanks for this a quick Google search and I found this online.

    It seems she Evelyn Cook, makes all thes accusations and threats and does it all anonymously. Hey how can that be allowed, no wonder she acts tough, she never gives out her base. So who is this woman representing. Stalkers anonymous, yes we know that. But the internet is a wonderful thing. Here she enlists the help ADAM Wilkinson of one of her SAVE buddies who she claims so readily to represent their views and it is disgraceful that someone one so readily available to give advice to ther people hides.


    Is it strange that she says World Heritage sites should not be interfered with when its in her own area